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Second Life Penetration
King Buzzo
post Jun 15 2007, 04:48 AM
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mindhive member and OnEntropia Founder Patrice Veuthey (Erasmus) sent over some interesting statistics he has compiled. Patrice used the Second Life May 2007 Key Metrics published by Linden Labs to create a graph that displays Second Life's market penetration by Country.

As he explains, "On the Active User Counts by countries, I added a column for population of each of the 40 top countries and another column calculating active users per 1000 of population. That number indicates raw market penetration. That is without accounting for differences in the economic and technological levels of each country. (see table #1 below)"



Patrice also notes, "The top 10 countries are all European with The Netherlands being the only country with more than 1 avatar per 1000 population, followed by Denmark and Switzerland. The first large country is Germany at #4.

"None of the English-speaking countries achieved even half the market penetration of The Netherlands and are very close together within 0.44 and
0.49. Oddly enough, the home country of Second Life, the USA, trails the pack at #13.

"The total population of the top 10 countries is roughly the same as that of the USA, but accounts for 50% more Active Avatars than the USA.

"The most interesting and potentially controversial observation I found is that the top three countries are also the most open-minded ones in the western world. Along with Germany, they are also the countries with the most liberal laws regulating and protecting sexual behavior and trade. With a few exceptions, the ranking of the top 15 countries reflects quite accurately their respective ranking on "regulated" morality.
"

Of course, the irony of Second Life penetrating the more sexually liberated countries to a greater degree did not pass by the staff of mindhive without a chuckle.
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DevAng
post Jun 15 2007, 03:58 PM
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wow (not the game :P) , hadn't realized that some many ppl in Portugal played SL. I tried it out, but not really my thing...
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Svetlana
post Jun 15 2007, 04:26 PM
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As always, nice work there Erasmus. It is interesting to ponder the many possible reasons why citizens of certain countries may find Second Life more appealling. The one that really surprised me was Switzerland- I must say that I haven't known many Swiss gamers or Second Lifers, but obviously I need to get out more!


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Burnsey
post Jun 15 2007, 04:30 PM
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hmm... 2nd life and penetration.

You might wanna edit that title so people don't get the wrong ideas.
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RexDameon
post Jun 15 2007, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (DevAng @ Jun 15 2007, 11:58 AM) *
wow (not the game :P) , hadn't realized that some many ppl in Portugal played SL. I tried it out, but not really my thing...


I'd actually like to have some WoW (the game) stats to compare to and also that of EU.

Marco could you help us out here? I'd realy be interested to have some current stats and then some stats after the introduction of EU into China.
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Erasmus
post Jun 15 2007, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Svetlana @ Jun 15 2007, 12:26 PM) *
As always, nice work there Erasmus. It is interesting to ponder the many possible reasons why citizens of certain countries may find Second Life more appealling. The one that really surprised me was Switzerland- I must say that I haven't known many Swiss gamers or Second Lifers, but obviously I need to get out more!


King Buzzo did the fancy chart. I only gave him the data for it :rolleyes:

Keep in mind that these numbers are per 1000 of population. Switzerland (and Denmark) are small countries! Although in total numbers, there are still more Swiss avatars on SL than Chinese ones (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)

Swiss tend to be either very conservative, some say backward, or far ahead of the trends. When it comes to futuristic concepts, EPFL is right up there with MIT ... while the heart of Switzerland, the three original states, is still called primitive Switzerland. Go figure!

This post has been edited by Erasmus: Jun 15 2007, 04:47 PM
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King Buzzo
post Jun 15 2007, 05:03 PM
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I thought this was interesting, considering they are pretty high on the chart. http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp...;story_id=40952
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Svetlana
post Jun 15 2007, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (King Buzzo @ Jun 15 2007, 10:03 AM) *
I thought this was interesting, considering they are pretty high on the chart. http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp...;story_id=40952


Perhaps they are secretly planning on conquering the world? (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/secret.gif) Leafren.... we know what you're up to! (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/shok.gif)


Despite Belgium being ranked 8th above, it's still higher than the UK, US and Australia... and Sweden.


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SB2
post Jun 15 2007, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (RexDameon @ Jun 15 2007, 11:33 AM) *
QUOTE (DevAng @ Jun 15 2007, 11:58 AM) *
wow (not the game :P) , hadn't realized that some many ppl in Portugal played SL. I tried it out, but not really my thing...


I'd actually like to have some WoW (the game) stats to compare to and also that of EU.

Marco could you help us out here? I'd realy be interested to have some current stats and then some stats after the introduction of EU into China.



A bit rough, but here's my estimate of penetration after China....

China |---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Rest of World |--|


BTW - Did anyone else read Marco's interview at MMO-gamer.com when he said that the servers for the new Entorpia Universe will be housed in China?
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Svetlana
post Jun 15 2007, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (SB2 @ Jun 15 2007, 10:13 AM) *
BTW - Did anyone else read Marco's interview at MMO-gamer.com when he said that the servers for the new Entorpia Universe will be housed in China?


Didn't read the interview, but it stated that in the press release I believe, or else there was another confirmation of it elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Svetlana: Jun 15 2007, 05:28 PM


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Fade
post Jun 15 2007, 06:50 PM
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nice chart....and yes, I will take the bait, but only a nibble...(ok, edit that...I swallowed the whole thing).

What is really progressive?...the endless search for better orgasms? (excuse me if this is crude to some). I think that progress is that which makes for a healthy and happy people. I think progress is when children grow up in loving homes, not warehoused in daycares or neglected by single parents who don't have as much time as they would like to be with their kids, because they have to put food on the table by themselves. I think progress is when a people grow, and are not in a state of population decline.

Here is an interesting chart. I color coded those from the top 10 of the above chart in blue, and the bottom 10 in green. You can see an interesting tendency...among the less more 'morally regulated' countries you see a healthier population growth. You must also consider that new immigrant populations skew this....France is a good example.

Now, it is not fair to draw hard conclusions from so little data, and there are many other factors that differ from culture to culture that we can't consider here. But I do find it interesting to see this correlation. I bet you would find similar correlations with religious involvement, abortion rates, single parents, women who put off child rearing for careers, deviant sexual behavior, etc.

We could ask questions (but not answer them fairly).

Do more sexually liberal peoples feel a greater need to drop out of 'reality' and into a 'better' 'virtual' world? Are they less satisfied with real existence? Is life that is solely focussed on the pursuit of immediate pleasures less satisfying? Does this lifestyle actually alienate people from each-other, so that they seek novel ways of connecting...even if it is just online with virtual leather chaps and whips? (I have noticed that this is pretty common in 2L...at least where I have visited).

If we take our minds out of the virtual worlds we enjoy so much, we can also see some other challenges. Not merely with managing our future economies with aging populations and negative growth rates (look at the terrible plight of japan for instance...which will be Europe's plight soon enough). But consider the double challenge that comes from relying on immigrant populations to sustain national birthrates. In Europe's case, most of those immigrants are from cultures that have significant populations that are antagonistic towards European culture...and some see themselves in a generational conflict. I am speaking of primarily Islamic immigrants here. Yes, some of those immigrants assimilate wonderfully, and bring rich elements of their culture with them, along with their hard work. But let's not kid ourselves....the issues we have seen over the past 20 years will only get worse in Europe, unless things change.

As one author said....Do you want to know the future of Europe?...it happened in 1990. (Kosovo). Some have predicted that this was just the first round of an impending war of cultures in Europe.

Now, while I don't care for some of the values from some of those migrant cultures, I do like others. They have strong family values (typically), probably leaning on the oppressive side too much, but they value raising children...and I agree with them that children are a blessing....not a curse, as so many of us in the west seem to think of them. (i.e. they just get in the way of our career or our fun for example). Naturally, in the west, you see us treating our pet dogs like children....they let us feed our nurturing instinct, but on our terms...and they don't demand much.

Could it be that rather than just focusing on personal desires, but by having a healthy relationship to the 'group', including roles, limitations to personal freedom out of deference to others, and service to others, that we actually find greater happiness?

As a member of the virtual community, I am happy to see its growth. But I do try to keep a balanced perspective....and hopefully, keep reality real and rewarding in its own ways.

So, this is excellent news for 2L in the European market... I just don't know how important that is, in light of the real world we must live in. Why, for those of us living in the most 'free' countries of the world, do we feel a need to 'escape' from those countries, into a virtual one?

And I am in agreement with C.S. Lewis, that escapism is not entirely bad...fantasy and imagination are good and healthy....so is balance, and deferring immediate lesser pleasures for greater long-term happiness and good.

I think we in the west could use a little more balance in our lives, and less pursuit of personal immediate (unsatisfying) pleasures.

And those 'progressive' countries are regressive in some areas. For example, in most of those, parents probably can't home-school their children (a limit of freedom), and you are probably not allowed to speak a religious belief against deviant sexual behavior (another limit of freedoms). It is also unlikely that you can own personal weapons (a limit of freedom). So what goes by the term 'progressive' is really just a differing set of limitations placed on peoples freedoms because of a different faith (or philosophical world view) that is imposed by the authorities.

We like to make fun of the Brady Bunch and Leave it to Beaver....but do we really prefer a 'Brave New World' to loving families? I know there are still some good family values in the west...but I am saying that we are trending away from those...and I don't consider that progress(ive).

Perhaps our enjoyment of virtual worlds indicates more than just our fun loving natures.



(IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/uploads/1178246529/gallery_291_58_7131.gif)
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Erasmus
post Jun 15 2007, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (Fade @ Jun 15 2007, 02:50 PM) *
What is really progressive?...


Oooooh ... I am not going there (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/shok.gif)

But please note that population growth has little correlation with birth rates, particularly in Europe. It has much more to do with migration, and most of it is the large increase in movement within the EU, not immigration from Maghreb countries. France has the highest birth rate in Western Europe, a result of their social policies. Belgium suffers from regional emmigration, etc. etc.

Oh, and by the way: While there may be cheese and chocolate in every cupboard, there is also (the equivalent of) a M-16 in every home in Switzerland. Gun control over there has to do with keeping your ammo dry in the winter.

... as for defining "progressive", I'll let any European woman on this forum explain what it means to her.
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Erasmus
post Jun 15 2007, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (King Buzzo @ Jun 15 2007, 01:03 PM) *
I thought this was interesting, considering they are pretty high on the chart. http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp...;story_id=40952


Looks like they forgot how small their own country is (1/8 of Germany). Have you ever met a Belgian in real life (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif) (just kidding, no offense meant)

And if they had been a little more upbeat on the subject, they would have noted that Belgians spent twice as much time on SL than the Portuguese did, a country with the same 10M population as Belgium and slightly more SL avatars.

... and checked their figures:
QUOTE
More than 57 percent of Second Life participants are men

The correct number is 73.64%.

Bad journalism :angry2:
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Dino
post Jun 15 2007, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Erasmus @ Jun 15 2007, 12:45 PM) *
... and checked their figures:
QUOTE
More than 57 percent of Second Life participants are men

The correct number is 73.64%.

Bad journalism :angry2:

Well, 73.64% is more than 57 percent (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)
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SB2
post Jun 15 2007, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (Erasmus @ Jun 15 2007, 02:45 PM) *
QUOTE
More than 57 percent of Second Life participants are men

The correct number is 73.64%.

Bad journalism :angry2:


Perhaps they meant to say that more than 57% of Second Life female avatars are men..... (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)

(lol I'm in a jocular mood today....)
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Guest_Guest_Fade_*_*
post Jun 15 2007, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (Erasmus @ Jun 15 2007, 07:35 PM) *
QUOTE (Fade @ Jun 15 2007, 02:50 PM) *
What is really progressive?...


Oooooh ... I am not going there (IMG:http://virtualmindhive.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/shok.gif)

But please note that population growth has little correlation with birth rates, particularly in Europe. It has much more to do with migration, and most of it is the large increase in movement within the EU, not immigration from Maghreb countries. France has the highest birth rate in Western Europe, a result of their social policies. Belgium suffers from regional immigration, etc. etc.

Oh, and by the way: While there may be cheese and chocolate in every cupboard, there is also (the equivalent of) a M-16 in every home in Switzerland. Gun control over there has to do with keeping your ammo dry in the winter.

... as for defining "progressive", I'll let any European woman on this forum explain what it means to her.


Yes, as I mentioned, there are clearly too many factors (including exceptions) like the Swiss militia force.... I was attempting to make a more general observation of general trends and attitudes.

With regards to France. I don't have data in front of me, but I bet that you will find that the birthrate among ethnic French to be low, and the birthrate among imigrants to be quite high. I think that you would also find a larger number of ethnic French involved in 2L than immigrants.... as long as this does not seem debatable to any, I think I can say that this supports my point.

I know many French people who left France and came to America, because of the lack of certain freedoms, and what they feel will be the eventual overthrow of French culture, due to the libral stances on issues such as immigration. Even those that stayed behind seem to be having a change of mind....with Sarkozy, that is.

btw, did anyone catch that recent headline, expecting the world population to stabilize at around 9 billion?
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SB2
post Jun 15 2007, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (Guest_Fade_* @ Jun 15 2007, 04:14 PM) *
btw, did anyone catch that recent headline, expecting the world population to stabilize at around 9 billion?


I have only one word to say about that....... Malthus
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Erasmus
post Jun 15 2007, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (Guest_Fade_* @ Jun 15 2007, 05:14 PM) *
With regards to France. I don't have data in front of me, but I bet that you will find that the birthrate among ethnic French to be low, and the birthrate among imigrants to be quite high. I think that you would also find a larger number of ethnic French involved in 2L than immigrants.... as long as this does not seem debatable to any, I think I can say that this supports my point.

The data is readily available at:
http://www.insee.fr

Birthrate of immigrants is only 0.1% higher than that of ethnic French and represent only 10.5% of total births recorded. There are good reasons for that and they have nothing to do with their much higher birth rate in their home countries.

It's good business to have babies in France. Have 4 or more and your housing costs are practically paid for. Have 6 or more and the children are pretty much assured to have at least one parent at home, compliment of Social Security.

But don't mistaken, the French don't just make babies, they also like to frolic a lot more than Americans do: There are more "club echangistes" (swinger/lifestyle clubs) in Paris alone than there is in the entire USA.

QUOTE (Guest_Fade_* @ Jun 15 2007, 05:14 PM) *
I know many French people who left France and came to America, because of the lack of certain freedoms, and what they feel will be the eventual overthrow of French culture, due to the libral stances on issues such as immigration. Even those that stayed behind seem to be having a change of mind....with Sarkozy, that is.


And I know a lot of Americans who moved to France for identical reasons, or to Russia or wherever. The statistical data hardly supports anecdotal evidence.
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Fade
post Jun 15 2007, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (SB2 @ Jun 15 2007, 02:32 PM) *
QUOTE (Guest_Fade_* @ Jun 15 2007, 04:14 PM) *
btw, did anyone catch that recent headline, expecting the world population to stabilize at around 9 billion?


I have only one word to say about that....... Malthus


Cool, thanks for that reference... I had never heard of Malthus.... the wiki on him made for an interesting read. I guess I really should study a little more sociology when I have the time.

Now, I didn't read that article, but my 'guess' is that they see modernization as a population stabilizing force.... i.e. as we see birthrates shrinking in the 'modernized' world. So, one could argue, that the best way to prevent overpopulation (which I really don't believe is a threat anyway...but will save that for a different discussion), would be to help modernize other countries (at least those that wanted to be modernized). Perhaps as wealth increases, people look more to themselves and/or government to provide for their latter years, rather than on having a lot of kids, hoping that enough will survive to take care of them.

it is interesting to think about (but I am really just trying to put off doing some of my assigned studies).
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Wanda
post Jun 16 2007, 11:44 AM
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I've never met one person from Holland in sl, people I've met the most have been from The USA, The UK, Japan and possibly Australia/Canada.
I've seen loads come into noob areas from Germany and France over the past couple of months, but nope - not one person from holland.

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